74- Maternal Rage: The Untold Side of Motherhood with Nicole McNelis

In this episode of MilesFromHerView, host Kat sits down with licensed mental health therapist Nicole McNelis, who specializes in perinatal counseling. They delve deep into the topic of maternal rage, also known as mom rage, discussing its prevalence, underlying causes, and its distinction from other mental health issues like anxiety and depression. Nicole shares insights based on her clinical experience and ongoing research, including a study on maternal rage being conducted with the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. They explore how societal and cultural factors contribute to maternal rage, the importance of acknowledging and understanding this emotion, and practical coping strategies for mothers. The episode emphasizes the need for systemic changes to better support mothers and reduce maternal rage, highlighting how paid leave and other policies could make a significant difference. Kat and Nicole also discuss the critical role of modeling healthy emotional responses for children. The episode concludes with Nicole offering a mantra for mothers experiencing rage: 'It's not a meltdown, it's a message.

Connect with Nicole:
www.nicolemcnelis.com 
https://www.instagram.com/therapist.mom.collective/ https://www.facebook.com/nicolemcnelistherapy

00:00 Introduction to Maternal Rage

01:33 Diving Deeper into Maternal Rage

02:11 Research and Findings on Maternal Rage

04:43 Cultural and Systemic Issues

08:32 Symptoms and Coping Strategies

12:14 Impact on Family Dynamics

13:41 Gender Differences in Parental Rage

16:37 Inclusive Definition of Motherhood

17:11 Caretaking Labor Across Different Stages

20:55 Understanding the Cycle of Maternal Rage

21:35 Acknowledging and Engaging with Rage

23:22 Curiosity Over Judgment

24:29 Practical Strategies for Managing Rage

26:49 Modeling Healthy Emotional Responses

29:12 Cultural Shifts to Support Mothers

32:28 Advocacy for Structural Support

36:45 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

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Transcript

Kat: 0:00

Today I am sitting down with Nicole McNelis, a licensed mental health therapist who specializes in perinatal counseling. She is the founder of an award-winning practice here in the Philly suburbs and has spent years speaking, writing, and teaching about the realities of motherhood that don't always get attention. In this episode, we're talking about maternal rage. Sometimes called mom rage. It's the intense frustration or anger that can surface during motherhood. And while it's common, it's rarely talked about openly, Nicole brings both her clinical expertise and her personal passion into this conversation, and I think you'll walk away feeling seen, supported, and with a better understanding of what's really behind Mom rage. Welcome to MilesFromHerView, the podcast powered by KatFit Strength, where busy women like you find practical solutions to fuel your fitness journey with authenticity and resilience. I'm Kat, your host, a mom of two active boys, a business owner, and an ultra marathon runner and a strength trainer in her forties with nearly two decades of experience. I'm here to help you cut through the noise of fads, hacks, and quick fixes. This is a space where we celebrate womanhood and motherhood. All while building strength and resilience and reconnecting with you from a place of self-compassion and worthiness. Whether you're lacing up your running shoes to go out for a run, driving your kids to practice or squeezing in a moment for yourself, I'm right here in the trenches with you. Let's dive in. Welcome back to MilesFromherView. I am Kat, and today I am here with Nicole and it's been almost a year since I last had you on the show. Welcome.

Nicole: 1:43

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be back and do a deeper dive into this

Kat: 1:48

topic. The topic is all about maternal rage. More things have come up and we're gonna do a little bit more of a deeper dive into the whole topic as a whole. So let's just, let's just dive in. Since last year, what has been one of the biggest things that. You have found, have changed, or maybe even your views on it or what your research has shown.

Nicole: 2:11

What I have found more than anything else when talking about maternal rage or mom rage, we use, I use the the terms interchangeably is just how much this topic resonates with moms and with people. So I presented, this all started I presented at a, a large conference last summer, so that would've been July of 2020. Four, and I've essentially been talking about mom rage nonstop since because the demand is, is there and moms are looking to learn more about it. Clinicians are looking to learn more about it. And as I was diving deeper and deeper into the topic and talking more and more about it, one of the things I was recognizing is we do have. Thankfully a baseline of knowledge around this topic. But there were a lot of gaps. This is a topic that's really kind of very much on the cutting edge in what is happening in maternal mental health and maternal health in general. And in recognizing that there are these research gaps and these gaps in knowledge I've actually started to work in those areas too. I have a tendency to do this thing where I go, oh, that doesn't exist. Well, why don't I work on it? So I'm actually currently working with the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and we're working on a research study on maternal rage. And we're specifically looking at the provider experience of maternal rage. So we wanna look at. Attitudes and experiences of providers because there's nothing else like that out there right now. And we really wanted to add to that literature and that knowledge base around maternal rage. And so that is, that is where I'm going with this, this topic really, there's so much more that we need to learn and there's so much interest. And I think there's so much interest is because so many people. Experience that so many moms experience maternal rage and they want to learn more about it. And so many clinicians and providers, all different types of providers are seeing this in their work and wanna learn more about it. So that is the biggest thing that I've learned, which has been, which has been pretty amazing. The reaction has been overwhelming. Which is exciting. And also I think tells us a lot about where we are right now.

Kat: 4:27

That's so interesting. And it's awesome that. People are aware of it and want more. Do you see like the maternal rage as like an individual problem to fix, or more as like cultural, a cultural or systemic issue that reflects how moms are supported

Nicole: 4:41

or not supported? So what I see both out in the field and then reflected in the research is this is truly a cultural and systemic phenomenon, right? So what we're seeing is that this is a cycle that is brought on by what moms are experiencing in their environment so frequently. Maternal rage is an indication that a mom is feeling like a sense of powerlessness and justice and stress. And so this mother is reacting to what she's experiencing in her, in her environment, and then gets into this maternal rage cycle, and that cycle consists of. The buildup, the explosion and the aftermath. Right? And once you're in that cycle, it's really hard to get out of it because it engages your entire nervous system, right? Your whole mind and body is responding and it almost feels auto automatic. And so I think that's what's so important about doing education around this topic and is why I've been working so hard to educate other therapists about, you know, what is maternal rage? How does it show up in our work? What can we do about it? And because it is such a distinct phenomenon, and it's such a distinct experience for moms, learning how to work with it is so critically important because we're seeing it more and more because more moms are feeling the sense of powerlessness and justice and stress. They're feeling overwhelmed and overstimulated. The mental load is just. Taking them out. And so it is really important to learn how to work with maternal rage and how to work with moms within the systems that they're a part of. So really, I take a two-pronged approach, if you will. We take a look at what is going on in the environment. Both in the the near environment, like what's going on in your family system. And then we look at what's going on in the larger cultural and societal environment. And then we also look at what is going on internally. And so we look at all of those factors and we try to address all of those factors in treatment, both the larger scale system issues, and then what's going on for somebody internally. And by taking that two-pronged approach, we get better outcomes.

Kat: 6:51

And do you see that the maternal rage could be like misread as, or misdiagnosed from like as anxiety or depression? Do you see it mislabeled in any other ways?

Nicole: 7:01

This is, so this is a really complicated question from like a diagnostic standpoint. So it's a great question and I think that there could be, so it's, it's yes and no. So the thing about maternal rage is it can absolutely be a symptom of anxiety or depression. So it can it can. Exist kind of under the umbrella of anxiety or depression, right? Like somebody could be diagnosed with like generalized anxiety disorder and this irritability and anger can be a part of that. Same thing with depression. Or we can see the rage existing on its own kind of as this singular phenomenon. The other thing that can happen is it can also be a misdiagnosis where somebody is reading this rage as anxiety or depression when it's not. It's just the rage existing on its own, or the rage existing as a symptom of, so it really, it's complicated. So it could be a number of things happening all at once. So things can be co-occurring, they can be happening at the same time. There can be a miss. Diagnosis. So really it just depends on how someone is coming to it clinically and how they've been trained to diagnose. And really it comes down to clinician discernment, you know, what they're really seeing and how that fits into what we know in terms of hitting clinical thresholds for these different areas.

Kat: 8:26

That's really interesting. It proves that it's a very, it's a complex thing. It's not just a one or black and white. Then going back to, you mentioned the central nervous system is it more parasympathetic? Do you find clients or those with like maternal rage stuck in fight or flight and not getting to that reset de-stress area?

Nicole: 8:46

So that's a really interesting question. So where I go with this is I really focus with clients on the symptoms, right? And so we, we know this is rage, we know that this is happening, and then we wanna look at how do the symptoms present for you. For some people, they present really cognitively where they get stuck in this negative thought loop. Like, I'm a bad mom, I shouldn't be feeling with. That's why I should never get angry at my kids, right? All that type of stuff. There's something wrong with me. And then for other clients it shows up very somatically, right? So it shows up in a very physiological way, right? Where they feel a tightness in their chest or they feel a heavy weight in their shoulders, or they feel sick to their stomach, right? So I think it's really important, and I would say honestly, for most people, I see it as some combination of the two. But that's a really, that's really individualized, right? Like rage shows up differently for different people. So I think that's where it helps. To put the focus, and then once you understand how the symptoms are showing up, you can then. Match up some coping strategies, right? So if rage is showing up somatically, you can then give the client some somatic interventions, right? You can talk them through some deep breathing or, you know, walk them through different somatic interventions that will help to, you know, bring their nervous system down to their baseline, right? And then if somebody's having more cognitive symptoms, you can give them some cognitive interventions like working with self-compassion when that negative self-talk kicks in. So that is the thing that I think is so important about looking at the symptoms, right, and focusing on the symptoms rather than focusing on the label. The A label can be helpful. Right, but we wanna go beyond that label and we wanna look at how is this actually showing up for this individual and what type of treatment, what type of interventions or coping strategies would actually be helpful for them, and how can we match those up, right? And then we can look at things like individual strengths, what is actually accessible, right? It doesn't matter if you have the greatest intervention or coping strategy in the world that you read about somewhere, but if it's not accessible to that client. Then it's not helpful. So what I mean by accessible is, you know, if I ever told one of my clients to meditate for four hours a day, they would look at me like I had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. It doesn't matter that that's in the literature somewhere, right? What matters is my client is super busy and she doesn't have four hours a day to meditate. Right? So how can we then take that intervention, which really does have evidence behind it and make it accessible to her, right? Maybe she meditates for five minutes while she is taking a shower by herself and somebody else is, you know. Has their eye on the kids, right? Something like that. Right? So you have to take, you know, these very high-minded usually interventions and make them something that is accessible.'cause that's when interventions truly become powerful, is when our clients can actually kind of get their hands on them.

Kat: 11:41

You're so right. If it's not tangible for them, it's, It's gonna be hard to figure it out. I find it a lot, especially in my work, it's like you have to break it down and meet it where they're at. And individuals are so capable especially women who who are very like high achieving and wanting and go getters. It's, they wanna do this. And in this rage sense, like you're saying, is where you feel like this locus of out of control or, it's. How can I show up and give back to me within all these constraints? Over time, how does the unprocessed rage just affect dynamics of the family?

Nicole: 12:19

What I see is I see resentment start to build, right? So if we don't. Engage with this rage if we don't figure out what this rage is trying to tell us, because that really is what the rage is trying to do, right? It's like a, it's a warning bell going off like, Hey, something is not okay. We are not feeling good about this. We, we don't feel supported. We feel overwhelmed. Right? When that warning signal goes off and nobody's paying attention to it, or it's not acknowledged, right, and it's not dealt with in a way that is. Productive. Then resentment starts to build. Somebody starts to feel. Really unseen and unheard, and that is a horrible, horrible feeling. Right? And especially if that's in your own household, right? This idea that nobody understands what it is that I'm going through, nobody understands all of this labor that I'm doing behind the scenes to keep things running. And that's really painful and that is absolutely something that so many mothers experience, right? That's the important thing about. Maternal rage, right? That's why we have this label mom rage, because this is a rage that is specifically connected to the experience of motherhood, right? And it has to deal with these, these unrealistic expectations that we place on mothers to do it all, all of the time. And in all honesty, we don't have those expectations for fathers. I get asked frequently when I'm. Training other therapists and training different providers on maternal rage. I get asked all the time, what about dad rage? Why don't we use the term dad rage? It's because when a father is experiencing rage, it is looked at as circumstantial and it's looked at as justified. Like, oh, that dad got upset at his kids because they didn't clean their room, and now he is letting them like know what's up. Right? He's raising his voice, he's being stern, he's letting them have it. He's disciplining them and that's the right thing to do. That is justified. If a mom were to do that exact same thing after telling her kids to clean their room 500 million times and they didn't do it, and then she gets stern and she gets a little loud. That mom is looked at as hysterical. That mom is looked at as crazy. That mom is looked at as she can't handle herself right. She's completely dysregulated where really? It's because she feels unseen and unheard and unsupported and her system is just exploding on every level. That is what's happening.

Kat: 15:59

That's such a good point. The difference in the same situation between moms versus dads. And I hate to say versus, but it is, it's culturally, we look at the roles differently the invisible load is still there and expected from the mom, and it's these terms that I know infuriated me as like, oh, your husband is babysitting the kids. I'm like, no, he's the dad. He's parenting, he's not babysitting. Equal partnership here. I feel like in a lot of ways we're getting there, but we're not getting there.

Nicole: 16:32

I frequently talk to clients about this idea of moving away from. The language of you know, my partner helps me, or I ask my partner to help with whatever the household labor might be, the childcare the cleaning of the house, making meals, all of that, right? We need to move away from this language of he helps me to, he participates in or he's choosing to participate. And because that language of my partner is helping me. Then indicates that you are still, that the mom is still the household manager, right? That the mom is the default parent. That that task belonged to the mother. Right. And so moving away from that language has really, it's a critical shift in thinking, right? It's like, oh, my partner isn't helping me. My partner is my partner, and this labor is his. Two. And so that can be a really important shift to make if we're talking about a household you know, with a mother and a father present. So it really just depends again, on the specific situation. But I do think we need to acknowledge that this is very much a. Pheno. The reason it's called Mom Rage is because it's a phenomenon that mothers experience and the reason mothers experience is because of all of these cultural and societal factors. And I always like to be really clear too when I am training providers on how to work with maternal rage. That I use the term mother inclusively, so I'm talking about anyone who considers themselves in a mothering role. You can experience mom rage because you're in that mothering space. So I think that that's important to look at too. So if somebody considers themselves a mother, then I consider them a mother, and then they can Absolutely. And then they can absolutely experience this, but it's deeply, deeply connected to being a mom.

Kat: 18:23

Do you find that moms who are in the seasons of like building their family of newborns or that toddler grade school or teen, you know teen to adulthood, do you find one area to have greater maternal rage or mom rage than other area? Or is it pretty even across all the seasons of life?

Nicole: 18:43

That is so interesting. So I haven't seen any academic literature on that. Maybe I need to look into that. That might be the next research question that I ask. But I can tell you what I see anecdotally in my work and what I hear my colleagues talking about in the field and what I hear from my clients. So what I experience as a therapist and as a mom also and in working with mothers is this idea that. There's always caretaking labor associated with motherhood, like taking care of children. Whatever that encompasses at any given time is a ton of labor, more than I think you can ever get your head around before you've actually done it. I tell this story all of the time something that my own mother told me when I was pregnant with my first, and she said to me essentially she was giving me advice and she said. You know, parenting is a 24 7 job. Like you're never off the clock when you're a parent. And I understood that logically, and I was like, yeah, of course mom. Like who else is gonna take care of the kid? Like, you know, me and my partner are gonna do this. Right. Like, I, I totally get you. Yeah. Makes so much sense. And then I had that baby and I was. Oh, this is what she meant by 24 7 care. Right. And so what I've noticed is that when children are really little, so like in the newborn or toddler stage, that caretaking is so very physical. Right. You are physically feeding them, you are changing their diapers. You are body training them. Right. You are chasing them so that they don't get run into the street, right? I mean, you are, you're picking them up and putting them in a car seat. Right. The, the early stages of parenting, or like you said, the early seasons of parenting. Are so physical, right. They're emotional too. There's a lot of emotional rollercoasters with toddlers. Right. We're not kidding anybody by, you know, we need to acknowledge that too. But really what I remember and what I hear about is just the physicality of it. Oh, and the, the being touched out. Right.'cause toddlers and newborns are always touching you all the time. Right. And the, you know,'cause that's how they communicate and that's what they need. Right? So there's that piece of it. And then the shift that starts to happen. So the. The amount of labor doesn't shift that that caretaking labor is still there, but it moves from this very physical labor to a much more psychological, emotional labor, right? So when you're moving into the grade school years, and especially when you're moving into the middle school and high school years, relationships. Get a lot more complicated for your child and their peers. Right, and, and not just the child in the, between your child and the adults in their life. Right? Like a, a middle school student has a very different relationship with their teachers and coaches than an elementary school student does. Right? Suddenly. That older student needs to be a lot more responsible for their workload, for how they're gonna get from place to place, right? Where that is. Thankfully, that's not the case with an elementary school student. There's a lot more handholding, right? And so to be a parent and to help along with that and that that growing independence and the growing complexity in those relationships. That's labor, right? That is emotional and psychological labor that you're engaging in to help your child grow. So the labor's always there, but how that labor looks and feels changes as our children grow. So that is, that is what I see and that's what's frequently reflected in the experience of my, of my clients. And I would say I absolutely experienced that also.

Kat: 22:23

I feel you. I am right in that, you know, we were just discussing before we hit record about just how our own seasons have been changing and and the mental load is so much If someone listening to this is like, I am just stuck in that cycle of rage and I don't like it, I don't wanna be here. What could be the most realistic first step for that individual to take for that mother to take? So.

Nicole: 22:47

There's actually two things that I'm thinking about. So first is we have to acknowledge that you're actually stuck in the cycle, right? Which sounds at the outset. So simple, right? Like of course I'm acknowledging what I'm going through, but when I talk to clients about acknowledging what they're feeling and what they're experiencing, what I'm talking about is really going there and being very realistic about what it is. That you are feeling and experiencing, and especially if you are feeling unseen and unheard in your life, to really do that for yourself and really validate that experience for yourself. So we know that the cycle of maternal rage is this, the buildup, the explosion, and the aftermath. So really acknowledging like, I am stuck in this cycle and this is what it is that I am. Going through and it's really hard. That's the acknowledgement piece. And then one of my favorite exercises that I teach to clients and therapists and providers alike is this exercise where we engage with our rage, right? We don't wanna shove it down, we don't wanna dismiss it. We don't wanna push it away, right? What we wanna do is we wanna recognize. This rage is not random. It is not irrational, right? It in fact is coming up for a reason. It's trying to tell me something. It's trying to tell me something is wrong Again, it's sending up this warning signal, right? What is that warning signal? What is this rage trying to tell me? And the way that you can start to figure that out is by being in conversation with your age. So asking your age, what is it that triggered you today? Where are you hurting? What is coming up for you? Where in your life do you feel uncared for? Right? What do you need? Right? All of those types of questions. So we are using curiosity with this experience of rage rather than judging it and shutting it down. Judgment. In the therapeutic world, and I would say in the real world is a dead end, right? If we just say, I'm experiencing rage, I'm a bad mom, there's nowhere to go with that. Instead, if we say, I call it coming from a place of understanding, if we're able to frame this as. This rage is coming up for a reason. I'm human. I'm experiencing this because, and then looking at what that because is and what that contains. That's using curiosity. And then it opens up this whole space for us that we can then work with the rage.'cause if we fight the rage, we're gonna lose. The rage always wins, right? Like there, there's no fighting this like primal experience that we're having of rage, right? So what we wanna do instead is work. With it so that we can understand it. And then once we understand it, then we can work on turning that into a productive experience. Right. And not an experience that we find difficult or hurtful or any of those things.

Kat: 25:41

That's really powerful. I've a follow-up question. So when the rage comes up. Do you remove yourself? So I'll use my, my son, he's yelling at me for whatever reason. I just asked him to go pick up his socks.'cause they're always everywhere and he starts yelling at me and all of a sudden, I just feel that come up. Would you just excuse yourself from the room or just be curious in the moment, or let's say I yell back. Would you be curious in hindsight,

Nicole: 26:07

so this in the thing that I love about this engaging your rage exercise is any of the above, okay? Could be true, right? So what you wanna do is you want to customize it and individualize it for your situation. And you have to know yourself well. So if you know that. In that heated moment and during that exchange that your whole system is just overwhelmed and overstimulated and dysregulated, and you just need a moment to get out of there and to lock yourself in the bathroom and do some breathing right, then that's fine, and then you can engage in the exercise and use curiosity afterwards if you're able to do it in the moment. Great. If you are able to do it with your, you can also engage your child in that exercise, right? Like, you know, this is, you can, you know, talk about how in your household everyone is trying to get better at yelling less and talking to each other. More often with more kindness and that you were working on that as a parent, and that you are, have the expectation that they're working on that as your child, right? And you can actually walk them through that together. So you can ask them, where is this coming up? Like, why are you feeling so frustrated? Why do you think this anger's obviously in a way that's developmentally appropriate, right? If I ask my. Preteen, why do you feel like this anger is coming up for you? He would look at me like you. I'm not your client. You know, like that, right? So I'd have to ask it in some developmentally appropriate way that he would understand and actually be willing to engage. I literally could just say something like. Why are you feeling so mad at me right now? Like that, that would be more developmentally appropriate for a preteen, right? So, so we could actually, it's something that I tell clients all the time I've experienced as a mom, and my guess is that you may have experienced this also, is we can like, tell our kids things until we're blue in the face, right? What they'll, what they actually understand and what they actually do is what we model. For them. So if we model that, hey, sometimes anger and rage comes up for us and this is how I am working on dealing with it. And now I'm gonna teach you the same thing.'cause I understand that anger and rage comes up for you sometimes too. And I also wanna teach you a healthy way to manage it, right? Like you are allowed to feel things. But we need to think about the behaviors that we're choosing in relation to those feelings. Right? And that's a really powerful lesson. And our kids are really not gonna learn that unless we're modeling that for them. That's what's really gonna, that's what's really gonna hit different as the kids say, I might not even be using that. Right. But I try,

Kat: 28:44

I I understand it. Yeah. And that's so true, and I love what you said there because it, it. I'm gonna speak from my angle we feel as women, we constantly have to fix ourselves. In this context of motherhood, we don't wanna mess up our children I like how it's like see the rage head on. Interact with it, don't stifle it. And then allow to invite others in especially kids and having that vulnerable even space of like, Hey, we're all human. We're, here's how we're all coexisting. And, you know, working together to build this strong relationship.'Cause it, it is huge and kids don't listen as, as my, my 14-year-old says. The energy in this conversation's too much for me right now. This energy's way too much. I've learned if it's a big topic are you ready for an energy demand conversation and he will be like, bet or like whatever

Nicole: 29:42

no, that's a great question. That really speaks to trying to meet your children where they're at. Right? And I think we can, there's a parallel there. The rage that moms experience, right. We're trying to meet the rage where it's at, and we're trying to learn from it, and we're trying to engage with it rather than shut it down.

Kat: 30:00

Exactly. Because we've had conversations where my mom brain's going,'cause we have activities at night. I am shifting things through. I've got my business checklist to do and then oh wait, I have a moment, like the four or five minute ride to his next thing and I wanna get it in. But he's I'm trying to digest all of school practice If I'm picking him up, he sometimes will be like, I just need a quiet car ride home. Cool. We can do that. So this is like a big question and probably, maybe it's just a long one, but zooming out, what bigger cultural shifts or conversations do we really need to have to reduce this maternal age for future generations?

Nicole: 30:37

Yeah, that is a very, that is a very big question, but it's a really good question. So I think one of the things that we can do as individuals and as providers in this space, just in general in the, the maternal health. Space is we can really start to shift the conversation around mom rage, and that's the reason that I do education around this topic. It's the reason that I will talk to anyone who will listen to me about this topic is we need to start shifting. We need to. Look at this experience of mom rage as both rational and productive, right? We need to recognize that this is an unsupportive, unsupported mother, right? Mm-hmm. This isn't a hysterical person who is, you know, just dysregulated all of the time. She is reacting to something in her environment, right? And so that's how we need to look at it. We really need to make this. Shift to getting curious and to not judging what is happening here. Right. And then that, that opens up the door to having a larger cultural conversation where we need to look at what is actually, especially in this country and where you and I are in the, in the United States, on the east coast, we need to be looking at structurally from a much wider standpoint. What are we doing that is not supportive of mothers? Right? Like, how can we support mothers better? So, for example one way that we can support mothers better through like policy and legislation is by having some sort of paid leave. Mm-hmm. Right? That's huge. Right? I hear from clients all of the time that, you know, well, well, here's the thing. So we, you know, we have unpaid leave in this country and it's 12 weeks and it's unpaid. That's FMLA family medical leave, and most people can't even take. That leave. Right? Because it's because it's unpaid. Because it's, you know, they, they don't have access and resources to be able to take that much leave. And when I say that much, I don't really mean that.'cause 12 weeks is not a long time when you're bringing a new baby home. When we look at the research, most parents and most mothers are going back to work within two weeks of bringing a new baby. Oh, right. Like you're not even close to being physiologically and physically healed. Right. And what we know from the research is we consider the whole first year post birth or post bringing a baby home. The, that whole first year is the, is the postpartum period. Right. And to not have time. To heal and to to learn and grow and to figure out what it is that you need, a parent and what your child needs, whatever that might look like for you and your family can be really harmful. So having access to something like paid leave would be a structural support that would then reduce maternal rage because the load on mothers would be. Reduced. Right? And then in turn, that would reduce this explosion because there wouldn't be as much pressure, right? So things like that could be really helpful. And I think it's important to recognize, you know, you talked about seasons. I frequently talk to moms about the, the stages of parenting that they're in. There is a really great parent educator who I've learned quite a bit from a therapist educator where she talks about, you know, there are seasons of giving and seasons of receiving. So like when you bring a new baby home, you are in. A season of receiving. Let people support you, let people show up for you, let people help you. Right? Now that my two children are a little bit older, I am now in a season of giving. So let me breathe on a very small level. Let me breathe the one who brings a meal to you. Let me be the one who, you know, watches your kids for a little bit while you get a breather. And then on the large scale, I'm starting to do things like. Pay advocacy, like legislative advocacy for paid leave. Because for me, I feel like that is so tied to my work on maternal rage that I needed to do something bigger about it, that I needed to look at the much like I work individually with my clients, but I know they need something more. And so I acknowledge the system that we're working in and how difficult that is. And then I also wanted to do something about it on the system level. Right. And that is helpful to me. So again, it's about knowing yourself. It's about looking at. What can I do that would be helpful to me and the communities that I'm in? And that's a decision that I made for myself and I really find that really rewarding. It's really legislative advocacy is, is tough work, and you don't see the results right away. I can tell you that. I don't love that part of it, but I do love meeting with a legislator and being able to say, this is why. Paid leave is important and I need you as a constituent. I need you to listen as somebody who does this work professionally, I need you to listen. Your constituents need this. They need these types of regulations and policies so that they can be better cared for and then better cared for their families. So, so yeah, all of that.

Kat: 36:00

That postpartum period is so highly pressured. And no matter what age you are that you're in that postpartum, or even if it's your second time, third time, fourth time through it is a lot. I always look back to the very little amount of time I took off with both of my kids and if I could have just had a little bit more. But the fact is we don't have the luxury of having a little bit more I see it with clients where sometimes it's not, and this is. All different socioeconomic classes that the, the luxury isn't there. And, and I would almost argue too, even if you had the ability to financially take off, as a woman, your career could be lost or very setback. Or your position may not be there., That is a whole other aspect where you feel like. Just, I don't know what to do or what's right and very torn. And speaking on my own terms, I feel like that's where some rage can stem. Where it's like you wanna be there for your, your baby, but you also don't wanna give up. What you work towards. I know that was a huge thing when I was in college coaching. I felt this almost, I'm gonna say like two different people. It was home me and work me. And it wasn't they were, I acted different. And then there was the core me in between who are you gonna choose? Who are you gonna put the time and energy? Because you only have enough energy for one side, and if you put it all into the work side, then you're not a good mom. And I know there was a lot of, I had had some maternal rage build up during those time. I'm a big advocate, go to a therapist who is trained in maternal mental health, who understands how this impacts, and these are normal feelings. This has no reflection of you being a good person or a bad person. This is a normal feeling and thoughts and processes to be having during this time. There's so much more we can go into and maybe if there's one thing that you can leave with our listeners that can just reassure them that they're not alone. And definitely I will highlight that to be used about talking to your age, you know, being curious about it. But if there's something that you could leave with our listeners to just support where. Not feeling as,

Nicole: 38:23

as alone. Yeah. So this, what I'm thinking of actually really connects to that Engage your rage exercise and it can be used as a mantra, it can be used as just a little reminder. But I love this idea of. Mom rage. It's not a meltdown, it's a message. Right? And if you remind yourself of that, then that can lead you to this idea, okay, well now I need to figure out what that message is. And then again, that opens up this curiosity and kind of pushes that judgment aside and gives us some room to work. So, and it's also an act of self-compassion, right? Saying to yourself, this is not a meltdown. This is a message. Now what do I do with that message? What is that message trying to tell me? So try to so for all your listeners, if you are experiencing maternal rage when you, I guess really it's not when it's or not. If it's when I would say most of us experience, I can't speak for everyone, but I would say what I've found is that it's a pretty universal experience for others, at least sometimes. Remind yourself it's not a meltdown. It's a message. So that can be the big takeaway. And I hope that that's really helpful. And this was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much again, Kat. Yeah,

Kat: 39:36

you're welcome. That's a great way to end it. All of Nicole's information can be found in the show notes. Feel free to follow up with her work. I'm. Assuming is it gonna be on your site or you, or, and I know you're on social media and if you are a local tour, if she's taking on new clients, be sure to check with that. If she's not, I know she has a wealth of a network with incredible providers who can also help you would be in very good hands. But this was so great and I'm sure we are going to continuing this conversation as you continue to get into more of your research and uncover more maternal rage. Thank you for tuning in to MilesFromherView, powered by KatFit Strength. If this podcast inspires you, don't keep it for yourself. Hit follow or subscribe to stay updated on the new episodes, and leave us a review to help more women and moms discover this space. Your feedback fuels this podcast and I'd love to hear what's working for you or what topics you want to dive into Next. You can connect with me on Instagram at KatFit Strength or share this episode. Road with a friend who is ready to embrace her strength. Remember, fitness isn't about perfection. It's about showing up for yourself and finding strength in every step of your journey. Until next time, keep moving forward one mile at a time.