29- Mom Rage: Decoding the Explosive Emotion

Are you a mom who feels like you're constantly on edge? Do you ever feel like you're one small inconvenience away from a complete meltdown? You're not alone. Maternal rage is a real and valid phenomenon that many mothers experience.

In this MilesFromHerView episode, host Kat sits down with licensed mental health therapist and maternal mental health counseling specialist Nicole McNelis to uncover the truth about mom rage.

Nicole explains the science behind rage, exploring common triggers like unmet needs and violated expectations. She provides practical tips for managing rage and emphasizes the importance of self-care and seeking support.

This episode is a must-listen for any mom who wants to understand and manage their anger. It's a raw and honest conversation that will leave you feeling seen, heard, and validated.

Connect with Nicole:
www.nicolemcnelis.com 
https://www.instagram.com/therapist.mom.collective/ https://www.facebook.com/nicolemcnelistherapy

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Transcript

Kat: 0:03

Welcome to miles from her view, the podcast, where we dive deep into the unfiltered reality of fitness, strength, training, and nutrition within womanhood and motherhood. I am your host, Kat founder of Kat the strength. I'm a career strength and conditioning coach, entrepreneur, lifelong athlete, and a mom of two. In each episode, we explore the unique challenges and triumphs faced by women navigating the complexities of life. From juggling family and career to prioritizing self care. We dissect the systems and the habits that shape our health and wellness. Join us for real stories, authentic advice, and genuine conversations as we empower each other to embrace our journeys and find strength in vulnerability. Welcome back to miles from review. I'm super excited to have Nicole McNeil is here. She is a licensed mental health therapist and a maternal mental health counseling specialist. She is the founder of an award winning counseling private practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where she also resides with our family. Nicole has been featured as a mental health expert in print publications, online media. books and podcasts, serving as a subject, serving as a subject matter expert and conference presenter for postpartum support international. Nicole is honored to serve the maternal mental health community, passionate about supporting individuals. Through life transitions, both big and small, Nicole helps her clients move through the overwhelm and the exhaustion of Joe juggling it all, all the time. I'm super excited to have you on and to chat with you. I know we've had many conversations over, I think the past couple of years. So welcome, welcome.

Nicole: 1:47

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. This is a really great opportunity and I think we're gonna have a great conversation.

Kat: 1:53

Yes, yes. So I always like to ask my guests, like, how did you get into the field that you're in? So yeah, share with us. How did you land here?

Nicole: 2:04

Yeah, so I, so after undergrad, I actually started out in sales and I did that for about 6 years and I was doing just fine. But I didn't love it. I didn't feel like I was contributing to the world in any way, any, any good and, you know, that really, that didn't sit well with me and I was really, really struggling with what I was doing for my career. Yeah. And so when I really sat down and thought about it, I found a really wonderful therapist and we really explored what I wanted to do with my career, you know, and I gotten to a point where I was so bogged down that I couldn't even dream about what I wanted to do next. And I really kind of needed to get unstuck. And I was able to do that in therapy. And I'm still that was over 20 years ago. I'm still so thankful for that therapeutic experience. And so I decided that I wanted to be a school counselor and maybe eventually do some outpatient work. So I applied to graduate school. And the minute that I got in, I sent my two weeks into the sales job that I was in at the time. And I have never looked back. So I started out as a school counselor. And then once I had my, so I have 2 kids. Once I had my 1st I started to do some outpatient work because the schedule is more flexible and I was really interested in outpatient work. That was kind of always the end goal for me. And then once I had my 2nd child, I decided that I was ready for private practice and I started to look into that and start putting that together. And that was also when I decided that I was interested in maternal mental health because I was a mom. I was now a mom of 2. I really thought about which clients I served best, and it was really the moms that I was working with. And so I got my training and certification in maternal mental health and once again, never looked back. So my private practice is 5 years old now. I cannot believe it. I now work with postpartum support international quite a bit. They're the organization where I get my certification from. I was honored to be able to present at their international conference this summer. I'm a guest writer for them on some of their blogs. So this is just led me. Into some really interesting and really cool places and just the, the ability to talk about maternal mental health more and more freely and without stigma has really been such a gift. So that's my story. That's what brings me here.

Kat: 4:41

Yeah. And I love it. And I think it's something like, like when you said there is like without the stigma and I think that is beautiful. For the most part going away and this concept of, you know, some of it gets glossed over as the mom guilt, the baby blues. Like, Oh, this is, it may be, I don't want to say normal, but it's, or common, it's not normal. And I know for myself, when I went through with my second one, having postpartum PTSD, you know, I always say like, I never thought it was that bad. And looking back, I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like I was like, and it is, it is. It's great to bring it to the forefront to have these conversations that even if you were pregnancy to delivery, or even if your motherhood isn't traumatic or like filled with that trauma, it doesn't mean you don't deserve support in that capacity. I think we all need it. And I think it's hard sometimes to be like, well, nothing bad happened. Well, nothing bad has to happen to have. support and have that give back to you because it is a huge transition. No matter if it's your first time, second time, third time, or whatever, however many times it's a huge transition. So I mean, motherhood, it's not for the faint of heart.

Nicole: 5:57

No, it's not for the faint of heart. And it's absolutely, it's a monumental shift in so many ways, right? Cause it impacts every part of your life. So clearly. You know, emotionally, psychologically, physically, if you are giving birth, right logistically, right? It changes your entire schedule. So it impacts every single part of your life identity wise. And so, yes, it is a. Monumental shift and my oldest is 12. He's going to be a he's going to be 12. The end of this month, which is just unbelievable to me. And I'm so thankful in the 12 years. Since I've been a mom, there has been such a shift in terms of stigma and also in terms of how many providers are knowledgeable and certified. And it is so much. Thank you so much. easier to find a qualified provider who actually knows what they're doing in the field of maternal mental health, where 12, just 12 years ago, even in, I mean, we live in a major metropolitan area, right? We're in the suburbs of Philadelphia. And it was really, really hard to find a provider 12 years ago who specialized in maternal mental health. Now there are so many wonderful providers who specialize and who are certified and it is really, it is such a good thing that the field has moved in that direction. And I'm so, so thankful.

Kat: 7:23

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I remember my, some of my youngest is 10 and he's the one that I postpartum PTSD with. And I remember looking and there was one provider. Okay. Now at the time I was living outside of Boston, again, another major metropolitan area. One provider. And aside from that, and I remember asking my baby, who was phenomenal. And she was just like, I don't know, maybe you could read that book. And I'm like, cause she's like, I generally don't have any resources for you. And she did like, she did go out of her way cause she had no, I don't know if she never had someone ask or like it. I can't answer for her, but she did help me find someone because she's like, well, this book came out actually, it was the woman and I can't remember the book she did, but she it was the one provider in the Boston area. And thankfully I lived four miles from her office. And I, you know, can't imagine, I always reflect back to that and to your point that there are so many providers around. So when I hear. Something for my clients that I'm like, Hey, kind of, you know, puts that maybe not red flag that like, Ooh, I need to tune into this. And maybe if they're okay with that, have a conversation, like, do you have someone to speak to, you know, or, you know, if clients based on their history, cause I do hear a lot, if there has been lost, Or if there has been a previous pregnancy where there may have been trouble time, or most recently it was in the last four years, clients who have had pregnancies during 2020 with all of that. And they're coming in either second or third. I'm like, Hey, going through this, have you thought about talking to someone? Because we don't know what could trigger. And it's not like we have to walk around on eggshells. The mind is a cool, amazing thing that. We don't know what could set off or how it could affect. And it's not that we're delicate. I, it's, we're just extremely resilient beings that are so outward focused as a mom, that if we have that care giving back to us, I think it just generally helps all the way around. So

Nicole: 9:28

absolutely. Yeah.

Kat: 9:30

Yeah. Yeah. The one thing I really want to dive into is I'm going to say. I don't say it's a topic you've uncovered, but kind of, I'm going to say, I hate this word, but I'm going to use it. That's kind of trending for you is the maternal rage. So we're going to segue into that. Cause they really, it's, it's huge. And I know I get mad. I feel that. Yeah. I mean, if you want to, you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts, kind of how you, I don't know if you stumbled upon it, but like just, Don't forget to share. It's your moment.

Nicole: 10:04

So, first of all, thank you for sharing that it is something that, that maternal rage, that mom rage is something that you experience also, because that is how we break the stigma, right? Is by sharing that, yes, this is something that I'm familiar with and that I have gone through too, and it's nothing to be ashamed about, right? There's no reason to have guilt and shame over this, right? This is a real Phenomenon, and it is super common. That doesn't mean it's okay, but it really is something that is experienced so often by so many moms. So the way I came to this topic is, like, I mentioned previously, my private practice is now 5 years old. I have 2 kids of my own. My kids are now 8 and 12. we made it through the pandemic. Somehow, including, you know, computer schooling and shifting to everybody working from home and all of that, you know, absolute chaos and, you know, what I noticed, especially during kind of the height of the pandemic. Was my clients coming in with this very specific rage that was intimately tied to their experience of motherhood. And that's the definition of mom rage. It is rage that specifically exists in the context of motherhood. And I was, you know, I'm on social media too. And I was like, So I was seeing that there was talk about this on social media, and I was, you know, hearing my colleagues talk about it. I was hearing my clients talk about it and somebody who was, you know, experiencing the pandemic. Also, I was noticing it coming up for me too. I was noticing that my fuse was shorter and I couldn't figure out why and. So I started to really kind of dive into the topic and look into the topic, really looking for resources for my clients and also also for myself, but really looking at what can we do to help with this issue? What can we do to manage maternal rage? And that was how I really came to the topic. And I started doing, looking for For existing academic research on it, looking for books on it, looking for stuff on social media. I was desperate looking for anything that I could possibly find on this topic. And so I have been looking at this topic and helping clients with it for years now. And then this past summer, I had the opportunity to present on it at a conference for. Both maternal mental health providers and you know, kind of anyone in in the field that's interested can attend the postpartum support international conference. And so, yeah, I presented on it this summer and the room. So it was a sold out conference with 1200 people and the room that I was in to present. Build up so quickly that we literally had to lock the doors and turn people away. We had people sitting on the floor. We had people all the way into the back of the room. And when I tell you the energy in that room was electric, like, the attendees in that room were ready to talk about. Mom rage. They were like, the room was literally bursting at the scenes and you could feel everybody just so so ready to talk about it. And so I think that's where we are at this point with with mom rage. We are ready to talk about it. We're ready to do something about it. We're ready to get help with it. And I'm just I feel really fortunate to kind of be at that intersection.

Kat: 13:30

Yeah. And I think it's huge. And it's I'm going to kind of say, can you decode mom rage a little bit more? Like what is it like? Because I can think like, okay, my kid doesn't put away his shoes in this the 900 time I've asked or I've tripped over them. And it's like, Oh, are you kidding me? You know, like, how does a mom experience mom, you know, experience that maternal mom rage? Like what, you know, just Give it a look and define a definition just for anyone out there is like, well, does that mean? Like I said, trip over your kid's shoe and you yell at them or, you know, I always say sometimes I have to motivationally speak for my children to get them to move or take action and may not be yelling like I'm angry, you know, so just decoding it a little bit more.

Nicole: 14:14

Yeah, that's absolutely right. So there's typically stages to mom rage. So what, what we typically see with mom rage is there's a buildup, there's a release and then there's The aftermath, right? So that's kind of typically what we see. So the buildup could be your kids not listening to you. Like, that is frequently leads to the buildup of mom. Right? And then you feel the tightness in your chest and your shoulders, right? And you feel like you're about to explode and then you've asked them a 100 times to please get their shoes on so that you can leave the house on time to get them to whatever activities that you need to get to right or to get to work on time or wherever else you're needing to go. And nobody's listening. And then you explode, right? And then so then that tightness in the chest and that tightness in the shoulders and that the feeling of heat in your face, right? It just. All comes out, right? And for some of us, it comes out with screaming for some of us, you know, shouting, stomping around, slamming doors, right? Whatever the case might be, right? There is this, this explosion of the rage, right? And then. There's the aftermath where it's like, oh, no, what have. I done right? What have I done? And so that is what we typically see in terms of mom rage. So we typically see again, this build up this release and then the aftermath. So that is usually how it presents.

Kat: 16:50

Okay. Yeah, I've definitely felt that. I feel like if you're listening to this and you're your mom, you, you have felt that. And it is, like I said, I mean, motherhood is tough. And I remember especially going back to that 2020 time period. My older son who again, shockingly, how is he? 13 said to me, he's like, mom, why are you yelling at us all the time? And I literally was like, I don't know why I'm yelling. And you know, that's when I, I still yell. Few aren't far between, but it is one of those words. Like, I just remember that it was just such a extremely, highly pressurized time and confusing. Aspect and yeah, he just was like, you're yelling, you're yelling. And I'm like, I, you know, I couldn't control it and it was, it was tough. And it really gave me this, like. I don't want to say wake up call, but more introspection to tune into more of, I don't want to say just my unmet needs, but to your point with those physical feelings. And I know for myself that it kind of led to conversations with my kids. My older son is, He's very into volcanoes and meteorology and all that. Like he wants to be that. So I described to him, I said, well, you know, when a volcano is like dormant and the lava is bubbling onto the surface, but then the pressures, the geothermal pressures start to shift and change and it just can't, and it explodes. I said, well, I said, we all, when our emotions are like that. And then when things, the ass, the pressure builds and it has to get released. And I said, I'm not saying it's okay to yell, but it becomes frustrating. And he's like, Oh, like, and it's, you know, it doesn't explain all of my, you know, that the maternal rage, but like, for me, it was a way that I'm glad he called me on it because I didn't really realize how much I was yelling because I was a little unsettled and then it was like, okay, let's connect. Let's. Let's decode this. Like when I ask you to do something, it's not because I just want to fill the void. There's a reason and an intention. And I need to see that action follow through from your end. Or if you're confused, you need to have a conversation with me and use your words. But anyway, that's like a little bit in my household, how we kind of came to some sort of. middle ground.

Nicole: 19:28

So what's really interesting. One of the things that you mentioned was unmet needs. So what we find in the academic research on maternal rage, which they're not surprisingly, so you work in women's health so that, you know, there is a, A huge void in terms of really good research on women's health and in women's health care. But there are a handful of really good studies on maternal rage and they are very recent and they're really well done and in those studies. The, the researchers saw patterns, right? And that's kind of an important thing when you're when you're doing research and healthcare and the patterns that they noticed and turn in terms of mom rage was that there were 2 kind of broad categories that they found led to the mom rage explosion. If you will. Right? And those 2 things were. Unmet needs, right? Like big surprise. And the other 1 was violated expectations and I loved the language that they use with that. Because that's like, such a strong term, right? Like, violated expectations. So, so I'll go, I'll start with unmet needs. So unmet needs is right. It says it all there. It's self explanatory. Right? So unmet needs could be anything from. Being sleep deprived, right? Not getting enough sleep, not being seen or heard, right? That is a need that we all have as humans. And especially when you are a parent and you're trying to get something done, not being seen or heard is an unmet need, right? Not being appreciated, feeling like you're being taken for granted. That is also an unmet need. Most of us need to feel some sort of appreciation for the things that we do. Right? And so all of those things are unmet needs. So that can absolutely lead to the buildup of mom rage. And then the other category is this idea of violated expectations. The interesting thing with violated expectations is that expectations can be violated externally. So by people, things, and the environment outside of us, but also. By by us by ourselves, they can be violated internally. Right? So, an example of violated expectations, you know, externally, there could be the expectation like, okay, you know, I'm having my, my 1st, child and my, you know, I'm partnered and my partner and I were going to split all of the work that. That it takes to take care of a baby. We're still in it right down the middle. Right? And it's going to be completely equal is going to work out really well. Right? We're going to split the, the nighttime wake ups and the diapers and all of that stuff. Right? And then the baby shows up and. Your partner doesn't hear them crying, and so there was there was air quotes around that for anybody that's only listening to us and not watching this doesn't hear them crying. It doesn't wake up. Right? Doesn't get the bottles ready in the proper way, right? Doesn't doesn't participate in the way that they said they were going to participate. Right? And your expectation was that this labor was going to be split and was going to be broken up evenly. And then that doesn't happen. So that is an expectation that is violated externally and expect an example of an expectation that is violated internally could be something along the lines of, I am going to be. The calmest that ever existed, right? I'm going to be calm. I'm going to be cool. I'm going to be collected and I'm going to exist in that frame of mind all the time. Right? That is really an expectation because I feel like there's so many ridiculous expectations that are put on moms that we then internalize. Right? So it's like, oh, yeah, my toddler is going to be throwing things and not wanting to go to bed. I'm going to handle that. So calmly. Right? Like, I got it. And then it happens, and you don't handle it calmly because it's frustrating, right? And then you have violated your own expectation. And that's where the guilt and shame come in frequently, where it's like, I was going into this thinking that I was going to behave in this particular way. And this is what this experience was going to look like for me. And it doesn't right. That's a violated expect. And I have violated my own expectation and that hurts. Right. And so I thought that that was really such a fascinating and important facet of the academic research was this idea of unmet needs and violated expectations.

Kat: 23:58

And I love that. I love it. But I love that articulation of, you know, it's. Because I personally feel one of the things that I almost feel like it's passive aggressive on social media like this that it's always painted that moms just need more self care and it, you know, and it is a real and valid thing that there are unmet needs, but oftentimes the idea of self care is go meditate or go construct this complex morning routine. Or if you don't have 30 minutes extra in your day for, You are self care. You're never going to heal. And you know, we're not that we're only good enough for primal needs to be met. Often it's those you're not slept, seen and heard and validated are huge, huge in that term to not make us all just this like, you know, oh, tranquil being, but it gives and that appreciation gives back so much more than being like, go meditate or, you know, go like, go get your nails or whatever, like a beautification process for that self care. It's no, you need to be complete and whole as a person. And I, you know, I feel when we make that transition, I'm going to speak more for myself and not for others is when I made that transition, I didn't realize. How much of those needs were a core part of my being, how, you know, even though I'm going to say, like, even though I knew it was low on sleep, how much that impacted my own mental health or, you know, being disregarded by others, not just me. Intentionally, oftentimes, we sometimes don't know what we're saying or what others are saying to us and how it conflicted with my own internal expectation of how I would be a mom. Like, I'll give an example. So with my older son It just did not work out for breastfeeding. It's all good. He fit. He's thriving. He's, he's a very healthy child, you know, whatever works, it works, you know, and so for me, I had envisioned this whole, like, this is how it's going to go. And when I realized this was not a healthy relationship for my son and I, and I was like, I need to change this. The. You know, for me, I was dealing with a lot of guilt and shame behind that, that I couldn't, like, I felt lesser than as a mom because this is part of my quote unquote roles to supply and feed my child, supply food for my child and feed my child. And then it was met with not ill intended, but like, like, My husband, who is an extremely supportive partner was like, well, you said you were going to do this. Why don't you try harder? Or, and you know, he wasn't intentionally guilting me. He was just like, look, I know you can do this. Like let's, let's do this. And it was just one of those where, you know, we talked it out. There's not a repressed thing, but it was like, you know, that he did on more. And I remember it just being this, like. Oh my goodness. I let everyone and everything down and like this big guilt, which did attribute to that friction that came between he and I, until we really talked it out and, you know, we're happy my child's thriving, you know, but it is one of those where you can see, but I didn't realize how some of these things like came up until I became a mom, how they're quintessential to the part of being until that transition into motherhood, which Or, yeah, I just think it's, that is something too with that, I was kind of joke maybe it's not a good joke, but back when I was becoming a mom the book, what to expect when expecting was like what you read, you was like, that is the be all book that had all the information, but I'm like, it didn't, it was great that I learned more in depth what the baby or the pregnancy was going to be. The developmental milestones and things to look for. But what I really needed was not how I manage myself, but what are the change and transitions going to happen? What does this really look like? Or maybe not really look like, but like maternal range, it's going to happen. But here's some things to look at. Here's some things to question or, Hey, you know what you, there's going to be a time between you and your partner where you may not be on the same page. Here are ways that you both can have conversations like, or, you know You don't know an explanation to anyone about how you're feeding your child. Like, it's none of their business. Like, even if they are a doting, you know, grandparent, it's none of their business. Like, how do you, like, I think having those is not to be on the defense, but to actually rid some of that guilt and shame with those unmet needs that do, like, As the research shows turn into reach, like, yeah,

Nicole: 29:11

yeah, no, that is exactly right. And that is a, that is a perfect example of how, you know, external pressures, but then also things that, you know, we have internalized. Right? I feel like in talking about. So, how we feed our babies is a big 1, right? And not only is there a lot of pressure to, which isn't right. Because it's swung so dramatically right now. There's a lot of pressure to to breastfeed and to breastfeed exclusively, you know, all around, like, the breast is best idea and all of that instead of fed is best, which is actually true. The babies just need to be fed. However, you can feed them. Right? So there's, All of those external expectations that we then internalize. And then also there's, I know the only images that I saw of breastfeeding moms were like, and I'm laughing because I'm picturing this is like, you're going to know what I'm talking about. As soon as I say it, it's like out in a meadow and like gauzy, like gorgeous outfits with like hair all done and like full makeup and the baby like latched perfectly and peacefully. Right. Where actual breastfeeding does not look like that. So that is the expectation, right, that we internalize, right? Like, okay, I want a breastfeed, right? And this is what it's going to look like. It's going to be so peaceful and so calming and so beautiful, which it can be at times, but not all. But honestly, not most of the time. It's usually pretty messy. It can be really painful, especially in the beginning. Right? It takes a ton of time when we actually look at the time that it takes to. So I crammed whenever I hear, like, breastfeeding is free. It's not free. The amount of time that it takes for someone to breastfeed a baby in the 1st year of life is equivalent to a full time job. It's like thousands and thousands of hours. Of hours, right at most of which are in the middle of a night. So, again, this idea that there's the external expectations, right? That can get violated. And then these internal expectations that we can also violate. But then lead to these explosions, and then we feel terrible afterwards. Right? So it is a, it's a vicious, vicious cycle. And, you know, what has been so eye opening for my clients. And what's also a relief for my clients is knowing that their individual experience is actually reflected in the aggregate, right? Like, we actually see their individual experiences reflected in academic. Research and for most of my clients, that is such a relief. Like, oh, it's not just me. It's like, no, no, it's not just you. It's so many women. Right? We now have entire books about this and we now this is now an entire area of research and maternal mental health. Right? And so that is really, really important. And it really provides just like, such a breather for so many of the moms that I work with.

Kat: 32:11

I think that that piece, when I know I see it in my client's eyes, when they are like, wait, it's not just me. You like, you can feel parts of them just like exhale, like it's like, no. And I don't know if it's always been this way, but I kind of blame social media sometimes for these glossed over. Pictures. I mean, it is very cherry pick pictures, whatever you want to put up, you can construct this fake identity or fake reality because that's essentially what sometimes it is, you know, there are authentic, really, you know, I try to pride myself on being an accountant, especially in the field of fitness. Like I've really towing the line of being like, I'm going to try and be as realistic as possible here. And you know, That it is. doesn't help the situation in, in these circumstances. You know, though, should to the reality, I should be able to, or it should look like this. And it's, it really can distort and mess with your, your psyche. Even if you do or someone who's grounded, I always tell my clients, like, I'll catch myself in a trap. I'm like, I'm just chilling here. Like, everything's cool. Let me. Pop on social media and I'll start scrolling. And then all of a sudden I'm like, wait, is that really something that's going to, and I'm like, Oh my goodness, you know, the science, that is just a quick hack that is nothing that is not going to help you like how quickly you can get sucked in and it's like engineered to be that way. But yeah, like, I don't, I don't know if you've seen clients where now, you know, don't talk about your clients, like, but like, if you've seen that trend with like. You know, what is on social media? Like, there's that big, oh, yes, a friend had sent it to me. I can't even remember, but, like, this big, like, mom push of I'm going to put right. But anyway, like, there's this big trending of, like, mom like a mom culture of, oh, it's, it just literally flew out of my brain. But yeah, I don't know what's trending out there. I was like, I saw it and I was like, eh, I'm never going to do it. I'm just going to pass it off. But yeah, it was, yeah, it's just the impact of social media. I do see, especially like in the fitness industry with clients coming in and I'm sure you see that with your own clientele, like how heavy it can impact. So.

Nicole: 34:35

Yeah, so it's so funny that you mentioned that because I'm reading a book right now called mom fluenced. That is all about the like mom culture on social media. So I think just are the mom influencer culture on social media. So I think just like anything else, social media can be good and bad. Right? One of the reasons that social media is so attractive is it helps us to feel connected. Right? In terms of the good, especially in the maternal mental health field, that definitely has reduced the stigma around some specific aspects of maternal mental health around. We talk about postpartum depression more. We talk about postpartum anxiety more. We talk about postpartum more, which most people didn't even know was its own thing. Right? And now you'll see that on social media. And of course, what we're talking about today, you'll see maternal rage talked about quite a bit. On social media, so in some ways, right? This bringing these different topics to light, right? Helping people feel happy. Moms feel like they're not alone. And that way, social media is a good thing. And then, in all the ways you just described, it can be a really, really negative thing. Right. We do where we do the compare and despair thing, right. Where there's these, you know, very curated accounts that put forth this really specific idea of motherhood. So I wonder where you refer it. There's like the trad wife thing. One of my favorites is the, the sad beige aesthetic, everything is beige and very minimal, but also very clean, which I could appreciate. Right. And like, so. There is, you know, aspects of these different pieces of influencer culture that are really attractive, right? That make motherhood, which, especially in this country can be very chaotic. We don't have a whole lot of systemic support where, you know, most of the moms that I know are extremely busy and overwhelmed and you look at these, you know, what is currently trending in the mom influencer world. And it just feels calm and gentle and peaceful. Right? And then that sets its expectation of, well, this mom can do this. Why can't I do it? And it's like, no, because that's was video, you know, somebody took that video and it was 2 minutes out of their entire day and it's fully curated. And they've got a whole team that works to push out this content and you're just trying to survive. It's different. Right? But it doesn't feel different. It feels like, well, why can't I do this? Why doesn't my life look like this? Right? Why does my beige outfit have spit up all over it? Right. Instead of being pristine. So that is what I. That there's that's the conversation that I have with my clients when we talk about social media, right? Because I think when we look at things in completely, like, absolute terms, right? And very black and white terms, like, social media is bad. Right? And it's like, you know, and you have to abstain from it. And it's like, well, for most people, that's not realistic. Right? And honestly, it's not. All bad, right? So I know one of the things that I love to do when I'm on social media is like something gets on my nerves and I unfollow it or something makes me an account makes me feel uncomfortable or I start doing the compare and despair and I'm like, I don't need to look at this. Anymore, like, I don't need access to this, right? I'm just going to click on follow or unlike and then it's like a breath of fresh air, right? Like, we have agency with social media. And I think we forget that sometimes because, like you said, it's designed to pull us in. So you really have to be mindful about the content that you're consuming and how you're consuming it and how it's impacting you. But there can be. Some good aspects to it. We just have to be really, really mindful of the negative aspects and how that is impacting us. So like anything else, it's nuanced and complicated and sometimes fairly ridiculous when it comes to social media. So we just have to be aware.

Kat: 38:45

Yeah, and that, yeah, and the awareness factor is, is huge. I always, I always ask myself, like, especially if I know I'm feeling just having an off day, it's nothing, anything has to happen. Right. Emotions are like weather patterns, they can just shift and change. And so I'm always like, am I in a good state of mind to just open up? Because who knows what's going to be spit out at me. And so, and sometimes if it's not, I. Just put the phone down. And you know, it can be really hard because they're, you know, but I do love that. Like, I don't want to see this, like, or, you know, yeah, it's things that pop up on your feed. I'm like, can it just be all funny animal videos? It

Nicole: 39:28

can be, it can be if that's what you, that's how you curate your feed, right? If that's what you're trying to get there, all

Kat: 39:33

funny animal videos. Right now, today it's dancing chickens are trending on my feed. So I mean, it's cracking me up. To me, that sounds really, really great. Yeah. It's been like, I'm like, I don't know what is in the algorithm to present this, but I'm loving it. I'm like, keep it coming. But yeah, and I think that is, you know, I always remind my clients and said, even if it's my social media for whatever reason, if I like, it could be a very good positive, you know, non nuanced post, but if it's going to hurt, if it's not going to impact you in a good way, like, snooze, snooze my hat. Like, I, you know, I care about you. I'd rather you do that than read a post because it's not that I'm not true to who, who or what I post on social media and I'm not tricking anyone, but it's, it's a one by one square, whatever it is. And You have a certain amount of time and I try to be as clear as possible, which maybe my word choice doesn't hit you the way I want it to come across. And so, yeah, don't, don't look at myself like. I fully support that because it's like the way I work with my clients isn't different from social media, but there's more depth to it where a post is, it's like a text message, you can read it with different inflection and, you know, it, it, I mean, there's no emotion or human, the human connection is limited there. So it. Yeah, I'm, I'm all for it. And it's like, I think I don't take offense if a client chooses not to follow me or snoozes my stuff. Cool. That's fine. It is, you got to do what is good for you and your mental health and getting you. Not just through the day, but thriving through the day and feeling great on the other end of it. So,

Nicole: 41:39

right. I teach clients this technique that I call making for now decisions. Cause I think, especially in parenthood and especially in motherhood, we are inundated with the need to make decisions, right? And there's a term for that. It's called decision fatigue, right? We just make so many decisions all of the time. All day long that it gets to be absolutely exhausting. So I teach clients to make for now decisions. So if there is an account on social media that is particularly bothersome to you right now, you can mute it for snooze it for 30 days, right? Or take a, take a break for a little bit or unlike it for a while or unfollow for a while. And then it's probably still going to be there when you. When you go back, right? And if you've decided that you're open to that content again, then you can refollow it or like it again, or whatever the case might be. Right? So, for now decisions, take the pressure off of, oh, I'm cutting this thing off forever. And, you know, the same thing with my clients who decide to take social media breaks, you could take a social media break for 10 minutes. An hour a day a month, I have clients that I have decided to take much longer breaks from social media. And that has worked out for them, but they still look at it as a 4 now decision. Like, I could go back at any time if I'm interested, or if that appeals to me. So there isn't this pressure that, like, oh, this is a, like, so the opposite of a 4 now decision would be a forever decision. Right? This isn't a forever decision, right? This is just like. I'm looking at my situation right now. I'm looking at how I feel right now. And this is the best decision that I can make in the moment. And then when I'm ready to reassess. I will, right? And that's also something that can really help with mom rage, right? This idea that because we feel this decision fatigue, right? So that can add to, you know, the, the buildup and the explosion. So, allowing yourself to kind of break things down into smaller chunks, so that it. You don't feel all this pressure heaped on you all of the time can be really helpful. So that's something that I teach clients in terms of working with mom rage, too, because mom rage is it is the feelings are valid. Right? It's frequently referred to in the research as righteous rage. Right? Doesn't come out of nowhere. It makes sense in the context in which we experience it. And so then we have to work with it. You can't work against it. You can't ignore it, right? The feelings are valid. So then how do we work with those feelings? And one of the ways is trying to take off some of this pressure that we feel in motherhood, right? And, you know, taking breaks from social media and whatever way that might work for you can be one of those things, right? Another way is getting more support. Right? And so there's a number of ways that we can work with the maternal rage to kind of reduce the, the instances of it. So, while still acknowledging that, like, some of these things are systemic, like, we don't have. We don't have really good systems for moms in this country. Everything from child care to health care you know, to maternal leave, right to family leave. Those systems just don't exist. And so allowing yourself the time and the space to build support systems can be really, really important. And again, it's about relieving a lot of that pressure kind of however, that looks for you.

Kat: 45:02

And that's, I mean, this is it's huge and I think, you know, I'm glad you tied in the decision fatigue with it. Because I do talk a lot about with my clients, the decision fatigue and how from the moment they wake up and sometimes our subconscious before we wake up before that predictable alarm clock goes off starts to. tick off the decisions and it's your go, go, go. And for me, from the standpoint of getting their fitness in or planning meals, it's, hey, those are a lot of decisions to get there. And to your point with systems and support, it's, What can we do to put in to give back, even if it's sometimes, and I'm, you know, like you said, our, our country is not set up for supports and systems, you know, for us at all, but it's like, what can we build that is sustainable for you now? And it doesn't mean that you're not worthy or capable of achieving your ultimate goal. We need to build this now for the. person you are now to elevate you for your future self. And it's like, you know, it can be hard. It sounds like we want simple and simple doesn't mean easy. Simple can still be hard and we adapt and change with it. And you know, I hate to be redundant, but it is a hard concept to grasp. And once they, they understand that, like you said, it's that release of pressure, they realize that in the context of. Fitness, they're focused on only getting or where they should be in comparing themselves to where they, where they want to go. Once they start seeing where they're at, they can then better support themselves. And obviously they're supporting them or we put together like Systems and structures that are within their means and energy capacity to help set them up for success which can be really hard. You know, I remember trying to, like, until I started decoding my own and really still don't have all my pressure off me. I don't know if we ever get there, but you know, and so I, until I started that concept of, you know, Meeting myself where I was and not projecting or shooting with that guilt and shame, it became a little bit more like, okay, I can breathe a little I could feel everything just relax. Just slightly. And now I've started and saying to my kids when they come at me with a barrage of questions, which is great. I just say one moment. Mom doesn't have the capacity for that. I want to hear what you have to say. It's important to me. Can you give me just two minutes? To get myself focused so I can take that on and I created that on my own. I mean I'm sure you can put back into that. But like, that has helped me not get overwhelmed and then just wind up getting angsty back at my kids. Like, oh my goodness. Like I'm going to, blow my top because you're throwing so much at me and I'm in the process of cooking dinner and I'm thinking we have to get out the door here and you need to get this and you haven't gotten this done and now you're asking for this this and this and this oh my goodness and it's just it seems like a lot of rubbish you feel like mom doesn't have the capacity but I'm like hold just a moment let me allow myself to finish here so I can receive more or we'll table it, you know and it is, I think the biggest thing is like having that grace of nobody does it all and it's okay to take time and it is more than okay to ask for help and There is support out there. And you know, like for yourself, helping clients think through that and decode and see those triggers so that not that they can just help themselves, but it's normalizing that they're seen, they're heard, they're validated. And owning their experiences, so they're coming from enough versus that scarcity and always feeling like I'm not doing enough and playing catch up. And that pressure just mounds with then the guilt and the shame with it. So,

Nicole: 49:42

yeah, no, absolutely. Right. So if we are talking about. Unmet needs and violated expectations, right? That are leading to maternal rage. So I hear the example that you gave and I hear like, your boundaries being violated. Right? So that's where overwhelm comes from. Right? It's like. Something I frequently talk to clients about is how, when we become parents, and especially when we become mothers, the ability to hear ourselves think is like, stripped away from us. Right? And In particular, I am somebody who needs to hear themselves think that is a need that I have. And so when that need is stripped away for me in an example, like, you are talking about where I'm trying to get dinner on the table so that we can get out the door to get to soccer practice on time, but we're also trying to get homework done and but I'm also getting communication from colleagues and clients and I feel like it's something that I have to reply to right away. So I'm literally being pulled in all these directions. All of my boundaries are just completely falling away. I can't hear myself think I'm not sure what to do next. Right. That's all happening at once that then becomes an unmet need. Cause it's like, I can't even hear myself think so then what do I need in that moment? What can help me with that? And you gave a really great example of, like, saying to your kids, I just need a minute, right? I just need a moment so that I can get myself together. I don't have the capacity right now. Give me a minute and I'll, I'll be right back. So, whether that be, you know, you take an emotional break, a physical break, right? I encourage clients to do that all the time, right? Just remove yourself physically from the situation if you can. And then you meet that need, right? You step away for a minute, you get back the ability to hear yourself think, and then you re, enter the chaos, right? With a plan for what to do next. So I love that example. I think that's a super realistic example. And it's something that I talk to clients about all of the time, and it's also important to recognize your own needs, right? Everybody has different needs and we also have different thresholds for things that we need to do. Can manage right in terms of multitasking in terms of all the things that get thrown at us in terms of the decisions that we have to make every day, right? And there's nothing wrong with your particular threshold, right? So I teach clients that too, where it's like, oh, well, this mom seems like she can handle this much. And I'm like, well, maybe in that area, but maybe not in this area. And also maybe that's just what's being. You know, kind of portrayed to you, but you don't actually know is it. I always tell clients. I'm like, all moms are struggling. And I'm like, I know this because of the work that I do and the exposure that I get to it. And I can tell you that all moms have, and I don't frequently talk in absolutes, but I can absolutely say. That all moms have at least one thing that they are struggling with at any given time. So give yourself that and know that you are not alone in that. And then, yes, give yourself the grace and space to work through it.

Kat: 52:49

Yeah, and I love that. I love that. I love that. That is, I know and I'll just use myself an example is I'll tell my kids to. I mean, I can feel my thresholds shifting and sometimes it can be directly correlated to the quality of sleep I've had that night before. And that's a great question. You know, there are times and I have I've worked hard at this because again, I'm wanting to be like, I have to have a clean house. I have to like, you know, they're just telling me my house needs to be clean, but it's like, after dinner, all the dishes should be clean before we all go to bed, you know, all that. And it's like, I've gotten really somewhat good, not perfect at understanding that threshold of like, you know what? I'm tired. This doesn't matter. Like, there's going to be a sink full of dishes and both my husband and I work together on things. I'm like, leave the dishes unless you really feel compelled to do it. But I have no threshold here to do this. This is not happening. I'm at, we're done. Like, and you know, or sometimes it's. My threshold is low, but I need to push myself a little bit more, not over it because I know tomorrow is a bigger day and that I do have a little bit as a reserve here to push because on the back end, maybe my kids are already asleep because I have a moment to get back to myself because I've been in those moments where I've pushed and pushed and pushed and really dug myself into that hole and And ragey, like, and it's, it's not fair to yourself or others around you, but sometimes in the context of life, it does happen. And it is, yeah, and everybody's out there struggling. I, it just, that is, it's the 1 thing I always tell it. I'm going to speak from the lens of. Strength and conditioning and nutrition on all this. I said, and then going back to social media, don't let certain gurus think that they have it all figured out. Like I don't eat clean 24 7. I don't have perfect training plans. Nobody does. And. You know, there are times when it's perfectly okay if you go through months of having great consistency And it's quote unquote easy to get to the gym that then you hit a month of I don't know if I really want this anymore That is normal That is normal and it's okay. And here's how we adapt and go through it because you are a living, breathing being that has emotions and feelings, and it's okay to reassess. It's okay to like doubt certain aspects that you were really striving for and change and adapt. And that's okay. It's not, 100 percent all the time, because that's not sustainable,

Nicole: 55:55

right? No, it's not sustainable and it's not realistic. So something else I teach clients that I think makes a lot of sense. And the context that you were just talking about is I teach clients to ask themselves. What do I need to feel cared for right now? Because I think that is such an important question of, you know, When do I push myself? Right? When do I really need to push through? And when do I need to pull back? And I think it can be really difficult to discern when as mothers, we always have a million things on our list, right? There's always something else on my list. Oh, and honestly, I usually have multiple lists going at the same time. I have my work list. I have my personal list, right? I have my goals for my practice, right? I have things I want to do with my kids at any given time. I can always be moving on to the next thing. Right? And so I teach my clients to ask themselves, what do you need to feel cared for right now? In order to feel cared for right now, do you need to push through and get that sink full of dishes done? Right? Do you need to do a little bit more work? Do you need to get a workout in? Right? What do you need to feel cared for right now? Or conversely, do you need some rest? Does rest need to be prioritized right now? Can you get a nap in? Do you need a longer night's sleep? Right? What do you need do you need connection right? Do you need to connect with friends and family in your community? Right? What do you need to feel cared for right now? And I love that question as like a discernment technique when we are struggling with that idea of pushing. Forward or pulling back a little bit, right? And then that, you know, also relates to our conversation on maternal rage too. That's a, that's a a technique there too. Whereas when you're feeling that rage, you're not feeling cared for. So then what do you need to feel cared for? And like you said, what is actually realistic, right? Like we could think of all of the, like, you know, like. And all inclusive, you know, expense paid vacation helpful for me at any at any given time. Right? But that's not always in the cards. Right? And so, but maybe. five minute walk around the block would be the most helpful for me. And I have access to that in the moment. Right. And so then that's what I do. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat: 58:20

Yeah. To your point, I just kind of jogged your memory. I was the moment of overwhelm and my husband's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I basically said, I'm like, I need a week of an all expenses paid vacation to Spa, but I can't have access that. So I'm just going to go outside on the patio and just feel the sun on my face, because right now I just, I need a moment. And he's like, perfect. Like, but it is, it is true. It's when like, and I love that question and. Incorporating that in isn't an overnight process. There's going to be that, you know, you're in the moment and you may forget to ask. But I think in that, like, after part, it's like, okay, okay. What, like, and reassess of, like, Not what could have been done better. It's not better. It's what led to that. And, you know, I think approaching and a little bit from how I work with my clients is approach with curiosity. Don't approach with that shame and guilt. If you approach it with curiosity, because maybe not in the same context, things will come up again, but like, Like life will get busy again and it could cause by just nature, not getting to the gym or workouts. So the goal isn't to be perfect. The goal is to adapt. So your needs are met. And if we can stay curious and maybe, you know, I'm going to speak from the lens and like how I coach my clients is. Maybe we don't schedule workouts that week. Maybe we're focused on getting the sleep, getting nutrition in and because whatever that week is filled with and we don't layer that on. You're not going to lose fitness. You're not going to, you're not focused on your goals. It's, we need to schedule that in because you're going to come back because it's planned. And the one thing that I know is the mind and us as humans crave fitness. Structure. Mm-Hmm And the mind craves comfort. And so if that comfort is there's no workout scheduled, and the next workout is when that madness week. And it's, you're back on the regular routine, then it, it just flows. So that's where it's like looking at when you go through that approach with curiosity versus like, Oh, I should have been able to, cause no, maybe that was your best in that situation. And then maybe we can kind of adapt from it and go. So it's, it is tricky, but I do like that question of like, you know, Help assess when to push or pull back because it is a very fine line and it's different for each person

Nicole: 1:01:09

and it's different at every in each moment. Exactly. That question can kind of move with you, which I like.

Kat: 1:01:17

Exactly. And I love that. I love that. Maternal rage is such a huge topic and it is one that it's, it's trending. It's gonna, it needs to be talked about more. And I love, I'm going to have to dive into some of that research because I love research.

Nicole: 1:01:36

I'll send it to you. I'll send you

Kat: 1:01:38

my resources, Kat. I'll be nerding out on it. I'll be like, everybody, maternal rage, just go see Nicole. Cause it is, and I love that it's. Becoming more common to talk about this, that it is being destigmatized because it is a way that is going to break down that perfection, that idea that everybody has it all figured out. Like my kid said to me the other day, he's like, gosh, he's like, adults have it all figured out. I just don't. And I was like, oh, oh my goodness, please. No. I was like, I don't even have it figured out every day. I'm like, I don't think anyone does. I was like, if someone tells you they have it completely figured out. Question. Question what they figured out. Not in a weird way. Just, just ask questions. Cause I was like, you don't, like it is, it's hard. Life is hard. And, and that's okay. And hard doesn't mean miserable. Hard means you're growing. You're challenging yourself. And, and that's, that's part of part of life. But we could go on for, For hours about this, and I will have to have you back. Where can, where can people find you if they want to follow you for information, you know, find you or come see you, etc.

Nicole: 1:02:51

Absolutely. So this is kind of funny because we talked about social media. But like we said, it's good and bad. If you wanted to find me on social media. You can find me on Instagram at therapist Mom Collective. You can find me on Facebook at Nicole Mcne therapy, and the website for my practice is nicole mcnellis.com and anyone can feel free to reach out at any time. For information on my practice and working with me and also for I'm always happy to share resources, especially on mom rage. So people can feel free to reach out at any time. I'm always happy to connect.

Kat: 1:03:34

Awesome awesome and all that will be in the show notes. So you're driving if you're while walking, don't feel bad that you missed it. You didn't have a. If you are in front of a desktop or on your phone it will be there. So you can find her there, and this is, this is great. We will definitely have you back and I'm sure more on this topic and more with as all as it pertains to womanhood and motherhood. So thank you. Thank you so much for coming.

Nicole: 1:03:59

Thank you so much. This was so great.

Kat: 1:04:04

Thank you for joining me on another episode of miles from her view. Your support means the world to me, and I truly appreciate you being a part of our community. If you found today's episode helpful and want to stay informed about all things catfish strength, make sure to subscribe to our weekly newsletter. You'll receive all the latest. Exclusive insights, tips, and updates straight to your inbox to sign up, simply visit the show notes or the subscription link to discover more about catfit strength programs and how you can ignite your fitness journey. Head over to our website at www. cat. fit. There you'll find everything you need to invigorate your path. To strength and once again, thank you for tuning in and I can't wait to connect with you in our upcoming episodes. Take care and remember act to take the next step.